[messaging] The Simple Thing
nadim at nadim.computer
Fri Oct 3 15:03:49 PDT 2014
I'd like to add, as another person who's been lurking this discussion:
For what it's worth, I think The Simple Thing has substantial value over
other potential models due to its reliance on pre-existing architecture
and pre-established norms.
The building blocks are already there: the infrastructure for key
exchange, the norms for authentication, and so on. There isn't the need
for setting up any new giant multi-tiered worldwide network for auditing
and keeping various actors in check should they conspire to modify Bob's
key. And I think this is more valuable than it seems to many people at
Some will say: "it doesn't matter! I have the will, the means and the
energy to build my new CT-like system!" And my response would be: Great
- why don't you use that energy to improve The Simple Thing, since its
components and norms are *already in place* and all we have to do is
make sure they're more user-friendly? Work on making out of band
authentication easier, for example.
I'm doing work on authentication right now (more on this later) and I've
already seen some promising work on this list in a variety of creative
ways. By working towards a better (simpler?) Simple Thing, you'll be
building on top of techniques that are established, on an infrastructure
you can already wrangle, on algorithms that are simpler to implement
from the programmer's perspective. Ease of use is literally *the only
missing piece*, and I think projects like Moxie's work (look at how well
Signal/Redphone does per-session authentication, for example) and also
Cryptocat/miniLock are showing that we can make this happen.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Joseph Bonneau" <jbonneau at gmail.com>
Cc: "messaging" <messaging at moderncrypto.org>
Sent: 2014-10-03 5:35:35 PM
Subject: Re: [messaging] The Simple Thing
>Let me try to summarize this thread (as I understand it) since I've
>been lurking and I think there may be some connections between ideas
>missing. Here's an attempt at outlining how MITM detection would work
>in two discussed cases as I understand it:
>CT-style (I think we should call it CT-style to avoid confusion with
>Certificate Transparency proper for TLS certificates)
>*Alice looks up Bob's key.
>*The Evil Log inserts a spurious key for Bob. We're assuming (I think
>almost all of us are willing to assume this) that log-consistency
>auditors ensure the log has to actually put the spurious key into a
>globally consistent log forever. Trying to locally fork Alice's view is
>too risky if some non-zero proportion of users gossip out of band.
>*Later on (after up to the MMD) Bob gets a ping from his monitor that
>"a new key for Bob has been logged." Bob concludes that the Evil Log is
>evil. Alice learns nothing.
>The Simple Thing
>*Alice looks up Bob's key. Two versions seem to have been discussed at
> Version (a)-Alice gets it directly from Bob over an untrusted
> Version (b)-Alice gets it from a semi-trusted key
>directory/service provider for Bob's address.
>*In Version (a), a MITM simply changes Bob's transmitted key. In
>Version (b), the Evil Directory signs a spurious key for Bob and
>returns it to Alice.
>*Ideally, Alice asks Bob out-of-band if this new key is correct before
>sending anything. If so, Bob detects the attack and warns Alice not to
>send. In Version (b) Bob furthermore concludes that the Evil Directory
>The assessment is that CT-style allows only the recipient to detect the
>attack, after the fact, and The Simple Thing allows the sender to
>detect the attack before sending. To me this wasn't the most intuitive
>summary-in both cases it's only the intended recipient (Bob) who can be
>certain an attack took place and that the Evil Log or Evil Directory
>has been evil.
>The difference is whom you need to be "paranoid" (or just perceptive).
>The Simple Thing detects attacks if the sender is paranoid and actually
>insists on preemptive fingerprint checks and CT-style detects attacks
>if the recipient is paranoid and has monitoring alerts set up and
>actually checks them.
>"Being paranoid" means slightly different things of course: setting up
>monitoring vs. doing fingerprint checks. Without hard data we can't
>really be sure, though intuitively it seems to me that setting up
>monitoring and checking against your own recent activity is probably
>easier. For one thing, in a CT-style system each key change should only
>require one check (by Bob) whereas with The Simple Thing each key
>change of Bob's requires all of his paranoid contacts to initiate a
>The costs also seem more naturally aligned in CT-style systems: if Bob
>changes keys more often he's the one that has to do more checking of
>reports from monitors, whereas in The Simple Thing frequent changes by
>Bob impose a burden on others.
>So CT probably has some usability advantages, at the cost of complexity
>and extra parties (auditors, monitors) needing to operate.
>A seemingly-obvious point I haven't seen yet: it's perfectly natural to
>have both systems in place. Nothing prevents layering The Simple Thing
>on top of a CT-style log. Paranoid Alice can certainly check out of
>band if she looks up a new key for Bob in the log and it's different
>from what she's used previously. Paranoid Bob can set up monitoring.
>Now you get detection if either sender or receiver is paranoid.
>On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Tao Effect <contact at taoeffect.com>
>>On Oct 3, 2014, at 11:43 AM, elijah <elijah at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>In the auditing-infrastructure thing, the hope is that user agents
>>>be written to smartly and automatically perform the auditing. Yes, it
>>>detection after the fact. The prediction is that the number of people
>>>running an auditing user agent will be greater than the number of
>>>senders doing fingerprint verification, and that this greater number
>>>will provider greater deterrent against bogus key endorsements.
>>In the CT world, auditing and monitoring are two very different
>>things, and they must not be confused.
>>Auditing does not detect mis-issued certificates/keys/whatever before
>>the fact, during the fact, or after the fact .
>>Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
>>sharing with the NSA.
>>Messaging mailing list
>>Messaging at moderncrypto.org
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