<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">On Nov 6, 2014, at 3:47 AM, Mike Hearn <<a href="mailto:mike@plan99.net">mike@plan99.net</a>> wrote:<div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">It may be worth coming up with new terminology here because we have two types of end-to-end:</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">1) Can the provider read messages you sent in the past if they decide they want to today</div><div class="gmail_extra">2) Can the provider read messages you will send in the future, if they decide they want to today</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">iMessages, according to all public knowledge, meets (1).</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>iMessages does not meet (1) as has been stated multiple times now [1,2]; by default they can read messages you sent in the past.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] <a href="https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/529852246125981696">https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/529852246125981696</a></div><div>[2] <a href="https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2014/001064.html">https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/messaging/2014/001064.html</a></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">It does not meet (2) but in practice no existing reasonably user friendly platform meets (2)</div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Yes, that is true, but that is also orthogonal to what is being discussed here.</div><div><br></div><div>The concern is twofold:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Whether Apple is intentionally or unintentionally misleading their customers when they say on their website "we wouldn’t be able to comply with a wiretap order even if we wanted to" [3,4].</div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, I am convinced they are.)</div><div><br></div><div>2. Whether EFF is intentionally or unintentionally misleading their readers when they say that Apple is (a) unable to read messages, and (b) keeps past comms secure from the provider.</div><div><br></div><div>(Yes, I am convinced they are.)</div><div><br></div><div>Change the definitions, change the argument being made, w/e you want, <b>_just do it on Apple's website and EFF's website_</b>, not here.</div><div><br></div><div><div>[3] <a href="https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-built-in/">https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-built-in/</a></div><div>[4] <a href="https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/529841963378671618">https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/529841963378671618</a></div></div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>Greg Slepak</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div apple-content-edited="true"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">--</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;"> with the NSA.</span> </div> <br></div></body></html>