This is a weak symmetric schema because it only requires 1 mitm per group. Trapdoor asymmetric at least relies on endpoint security per participant. In any event, more interlocutors relates to more insecurity. Is there a viable alternative? <div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 27, 2014 6:28 PM, <<a href="mailto:steve@actor.im">steve@actor.im</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi again! Private conversation seems to be solved in TextSecure. May be in future we will need to change basic algorithms and replace Axolotl Ratchet, but idea seems to be good for long term usage. But, it does'nt really useful for group conversations. We (in <a href="http://actor.im" target="_blank">actor.im</a>) are trying to find best way to do encrypted group communications. We know two different ways of encrypted group messaging: 1) Sharing one key sequence 2) Sending messages like the private one - one message for each recipient At the beginning we implemented the first type of group messaging based on rules: 1) First of all creator of group conversation generate some secret key, say, simple AES key and send to every participant of group like it do with private messages. 2) When someone invite participant to group it do the same: generates new AES key and send it to everyone in group plus new user. 3) When someone kick user it also change the group AES key and send it to everyone. 4) When someone leave group than someone from group must update group AES key before sending new message. 5) All messages are encrypted with current group AES key. This is not perfect and implemented just for testing our ideas. We can implement some kind of ratcheting like in Axolotl Ratchet for better future secrecy. We can add some better and more secure rules for group conversations, but in still looks bad. It doesn't feel to be secure to share one common key across all members of group. One of main plus of group is that we can easily check encryption key for group. In TextSecure for groups is used same technique as used for private messages. Any message is encrypted for every member in group and send like private message and marked as message as part of group. It looks better for security reasons because there are no single failure point as was with shared key. It is simple to implement if you already have encrypted private messages. But it is really hard to check keys - we need to check keys for everyone from group by every member of group. Also it is much much more traffic for this type of group encryption. In the end, it is much harder to detect that someone from group got totally compromised. If someone from group will be compromised than everyone will be compromised. Compromising one of user by adding maculous key to user's account (we support multiple device for one account) may be solved by manual verification by each group member on new key adding. For private conversations we use simple notification message about adding new device. After all it seems that there are no good solution for group messaging. Any ideas? -- Steve K, CEO Actor.im _______________________________________________ Messaging mailing list <a href="mailto:Messaging@moderncrypto.org">Messaging@moderncrypto.org</a> <a href="https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/messaging" target="_blank">https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/messaging</a> </blockquote></div>