<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Nick Badger <<a href="mailto:nbadger1@gmail.com" class="">nbadger1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hello,<br class=""><br class="">I'm working on a cryptographically enforced asynchronous social protocol (<a href="https://github.com/Muterra/doc-muse" class="">https://github.com/Muterra/doc-muse</a>, but we don't have a formal security analysis yet and the spec and whitepaper are very long. None of it has been put into code yet; we'd like to have third-party protocol reviewers first). But three relevant details are that 1.) key/access control is separate from content containers, 2.) all resources are content-addressed by their hash digests, and 3.) the protocol is transport agnostic, so traffic analysis, etc are deliberately out-of-scope.<br class=""><br class="">Because everything is hash addressed, and content is retained asynchronously (potentially indefinitely; note that key persistence is handled separately), we're very concerned about data deduplication. "Ideally" (ie, ignoring security, which we're obviously not doing), to minimize network clutter, every (plaintext + key) combination would result in identical ciphertext. Of course, in practice, we need to be extremely concerned about reusing a (key + nonce) combination, but for reasons I won't go into here, replay attacks are meaningless to the protocol -- so the thought is, we can generate the nonce from a manipulation of the hash of the plaintext. The nonce will still need to be prepended to the ciphertext in the clear for decryption, but this way an identical (key + nonce) combination will by definition have an identical resulting file.<br class=""><br class="">First question: is this a reasonable approach? I'm honestly having a difficult time deciding if this increases or decreases our attack surface area, given the way the rest of the protocol is set up.<br class=""><br class="">Second question: assuming it is reasonable, what's the best way to do this? We do have to be concerned about leaking information from the inner container, so our current process is NONCE = AES-ECB( message_key, HASH( plaintext ) ) with the hash truncated to match the symmetric block size. Frankly though, that seems off to me, at the very least because we're reusing the message key. We should probably transition the message key to a master key, and use a KDF to generate both the nonce key and the message key. To that end, would NONCE = AES-ECB( KDF( master_key, HASH(plaintext) ), HASH(plaintext) ) make more sense? The "extra" AES here is to protect from dictionary attacks and against potential hash compromise.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>If you are going to all this trouble you might as well use AES-SIV.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Paul</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Thanks much.<br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">Nick Badger<br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.ethyr.net/" target="_blank" class="">https://www.ethyr.net</a><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.muterra.io/" target="_blank" class="">https://www.muterra.io</a><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><a href="http://www.nickbadger.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://www.nickbadger.com</a><br class=""><span class=""><font size="1" class="">PGP fingerprint 37B9 22FC 2E47 50AA E06B 9CEC FB65 8930 46F0 333A, listed at <a href="https://pgp.mit.edu/" target="_blank" class="">MIT</a> and <a href="http://keyserver.pgp.com/" target="_blank" class="">PGP</a></font></span><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> </div> _______________________________________________<br class="">Messaging mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Messaging@moderncrypto.org" class="">Messaging@moderncrypto.org</a><br class="">https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/messaging<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>