<div dir="ltr"><div>I agree with Jake that there doesn't seem to be a real logic as to how to produce deferred patterns from fundamental patterns.</div><div><br></div><div>Katriel: this isn't an answer to your question, but a (hopefully helpful) note that Noise Explorer contains results for deferred patterns and can be used as a reference to check for any security property differences :-)<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Nadim Kobeissi<div>Symbolic Software <span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-size:small">• <a href="https://symbolic.software" target="_blank">https://symbolic.software</a></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-size:small">Sent from office</span></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:22 AM Katriel Cohn-Gordon <<a href="mailto:me@katriel.co.uk">me@katriel.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u> <div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Relatedly, is there an expected relationship between the rows in the security properties table for a protocol and its deferred version?<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> <div>On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, at 10:13 AM, jake mcginty wrote:<br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">On the new deferred patterns: although an appendix is included with the exact patterns definitions, the spec itself is unspecific about how deferred patterns are generated from the fundamentals.<br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">It doesn't strictly define where the authenticating DH operations are moved to from their original position, and the appendix patterns don't seem to follow a consistent pattern (ex: XX1 *prepends* the "es" token to the next message, whereas NK1 *appends* the "es" token to the next message).<br></div> <div><div><div><div><br></div> <div>Is this intentional and implementers are expected to hardcode these new patterns?<br></div> <div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 13, 2018, at 1:42 AM, Trevor Perrin <<a href="mailto:trevp@trevp.net" target="_blank">trevp@trevp.net</a>> wrote:<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> <div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div> <div>Hi all,<br></div> <div><br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Quick status update for the Noise spec revision 34:<br></div> <div><br></div> <div>Noise Explorer is finishing an updated analysis, sounds like we'll get it this week. If everything checks out, I'll publish the spec afterwards.<br></div> <div><br></div> <div>Thus it's a great time to do last-minute proof-reading, if anyone's so inclined. There's a change log, so you can focus on the parts that were updated (or look at diffs):<br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div><div><a href="https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34" target="_blank">https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34</a><br></div> <div><a href="https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/blob/rev34/output/noise.pdf" target="_blank">https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/blob/rev34/output/noise.pdf</a><br></div> </div> <div><br></div> </div> <div><br></div> <div>Trevor<br></div> <div><br></div> </div> <div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> <div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 2:18 AM, Trevor Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trevp@trevp.net" target="_blank">trevp@trevp.net</a>></span> wrote:<br></div> <blockquote style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I updated revision 34 draft with:<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> * Security properties for deferred patterns in appendix, taken from<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> Noise Explorer.<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> * Renamed "authentication" / "confidentiality" security properties in<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> spec to "source" / "destination", since the Noise Explorer team<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> pointed out these categories don't map directly to the previous terms.<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> * In section 10, clarified the distinction between "switch protocols"<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> (a protocol that Bob switches to) and "fallback protocols" (a protocol<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> that uses the fallback modifier).<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> * In section 10, removed some of the description of a "type byte";<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> and generalized/renamed the "Type fields" discussion in "Application<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> responsibilities" to discuss "Negotiation data".<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> * Added X1N pattern (which I forgot somehow; so needs to be added to<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> Noise Explorer too).<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> For the first two points, I'd like to follow-up with Noise Explorer<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> team and see whether they agree with how the spec presents these<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> properties. In particular, do they still want 2 additional<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> categories? [1].<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> For the next 2 points: we don't want to put NoiseSocket/NLS stuff in<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> this spec, but I think exploring those things has improved our<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> understanding of how to build things around Noise, so reflecting that<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> better understanding in this spec makes sense.<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> We could use proof-reading of the security properties table, that's a<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> lot for me to transcribe from Noise Explorer..<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> Other comments?<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> I keep saying this, but hopefully we can publish this week.<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <a href="https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34" target="_blank">https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34</a><br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <a href="https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/blob/rev34/output/noise.pdf" target="_blank">https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/blob/rev34/output/noise.pdf</a><br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> Trevor<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> <br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"> [1] <a href="https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34" target="_blank">https://github.com/noiseprotocol/noise_spec/tree/rev34</a><br></div> </blockquote></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> </div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif">_______________________________________________<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Noise mailing list<br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><a href="mailto:Noise@moderncrypto.org" target="_blank">Noise@moderncrypto.org</a><br></div> <div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><a href="https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise" target="_blank">https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise</a><br></div> </div> </blockquote></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br></div> <div>Noise mailing list<br></div> <div><a href="mailto:Noise@moderncrypto.org" target="_blank">Noise@moderncrypto.org</a><br></div> <div><a href="https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise" target="_blank">https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise</a><br></div> </blockquote><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Noise mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Noise@moderncrypto.org" target="_blank">Noise@moderncrypto.org</a><br> <a href="https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://moderncrypto.org/mailman/listinfo/noise</a><br> </blockquote></div>