[noise] Explicit nonces (for lossy transports)
me at jake.su
Thu Jun 15 00:42:39 PDT 2017
OH NO NOT THE KITTENS!
Thanks so much for laying out the challenges. This summary of the
gold, and yeah I agree.
It sounds like a lot of what I was describing belongs in a “Noise
project which could have a opinionated level 4 protocol to make it easy
WebRTC-esque protocols using Noise.
I guess the question now is, do we:
1) Define an “explicit nonce” extension which specifies that Split()
CipherState whose EncryptWithAd(ad, plaintext) returns a (ciphertext,
and where DecryptWithAd’s signature becomes DecryptWithAd(ad,
and state that implementations must ensure duplicate nonces aren’t
2) Make the Noise spec less opinionated about the “transport” phase
machine, and change the transport CipherState to not require a nonce,
instead specify that there must be a mechanism for ensuring duplicate
On 14 Jun 2017, at 1:40, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote:
> Hi Trevor, Jake,
> This seems like a big mistake for me, and not a rabbit hole you want
> to go down.
> The only thing Noise needs to specify is that a nonce may only be used
> once, but the order of nonces does not matter.
> Beyond that, you're going to be wasting a lot of time and duplicating
> tons of effort to try to specify an extension document about this. The
> reason is that different configurations need different
> Generally speaking, if you want a protocol that "works" and does most
> things the way you're expecting, then you use TCP. If you have other
> use cases and a permissive network then you can use SCTP, or if your
> network isn't permissive, you can use SCTP over UDP. However, if you
> want a totally custom protocol for something very specific and
> particular -- a VPN, a low latency video game, streaming video, real
> time video chat, fully-buffered file uploads, broadcast time updates
> -- then you pretty much want to design your own layer 4 protocol on
> top of UDP. This most certainly shouldn't be the task of a crypto
> protocol like Noise, which exists at layer 5, not layer 4.
> For example, once you've specified the easy statement about nonces I
> mentioned above, you then have to decide how you want to deal with
> out-of-order messages. Should you use a simple sliding window as in
> appendix C of RFC2401? Should you use a more complex rotating buffer
> to avoid bit shifts as in RFC6479? Should you choose any one of the
> dozens of other algorithms that have been invented for different
> network characteristics? Should each packet also get a timestamp so
> that packets which are too old can be discarded, no matter the status
> of the out-of-order window? These are all decisions that are probably
> best not made inside Noise, but rather by a consumer of Noise who will
> actually be able to choose what Noise is being used for.
> How should retransmissions happen during the handshake? Should there
> be a timeout for every packet, with the most recent one retransmitted?
> Should there be a timeout for the entire handshake, with it starting
> over from scratch if it is not entirely completed? Should these
> timeouts be dynamic to deal with high latency space stations or should
> they be static to simplify the state machine? Again, best left up to
> the user of Noise.
> How should termination be handled? An explicit terminator, or an
> implicit timeout? How should chunking and MTU be specified? Should
> each message be chunked into smaller records so that they can be
> retransmitted individually in the case of ICMP fragmentation-needed?
> Or in case of a timeout? Or should messages simply always be below the
> smallest allowed MTU for a given layer 1/2/3? Not something you want
> to put into Noise, and again best left up to a user of Noise.
> So anyway, putting this in Noise seems like a pretty terrible idea and
> not the sort of networking brain damage to which you want to expose
> yourself, your children, or your kitten. The rabbit hole knows no
> bounds, and there are no "right" decisions that can be made for a
> one-size-fits-all extension or even a several-sizes-fit-all set of
> In fact, that's kind of the beauty of Noise. It specifies the crypto
> layer. Using that, you can then very easily fit it to whatever network
> layer you want -- TCP, SCTP, UDP custom protocol, CAN bus, I2C, SMS,
> twitter, the block chain, and so forth. Noise can work well over
> streaming layers or over datagram layers. It can work well over
> sequential layers or non-sequential layers. Etc, etc. Noise is really
> quite flexible, and fitting for lots of different circumstances.
> Therefore, the only thing Noise might possibly need is a mention in
> the specification that nonces can be made explicit, so long as they're
> only used once. My own reading was that this was already implied --
> and indeed every existing Noise library allows for this -- but in case
> there's ambiguity, this probably only requires one sentence to
More information about the Noise