[messaging] PKI is dead

U.Mutlu for-gmane at mutluit.com
Fri Jan 23 19:07:04 PST 2015

Tao Effect wrote, On 01/24/2015 03:47 AM:
> On Jan 23, 2015, at 6:37 PM, U.Mutlu <for-gmane at mutluit.com> wrote:
>> Why am I wrong? Where is your argument?
> Several people have replied to you and presented arguments which you have
> either ignored or misunderstood.
> Michael mentioned:
>> Without PKI it’s a duckling model at best, and you don’t log into every
>> website every time with a password.

because his argument was off-topic as the discussion is about messaging, not
web surfing.
And: login authentication requires obviously a login, but if there is no need
for a login then there is no need to go to the website with a password...

> Tony pointed out:
>> These aren't MITM safe. They're TOFU. They have no way to authenticate
>> the server.
>> When you enroll a PAKE account, if you're talking to a MITM server,
>> you're toast. The MITM can then enroll with the real service on your
>> behalf and transparently proxy everything through, except the MITM will
>> have the real credentials, and your credentials will only work with the
>> MITM.
> Your reply to him didn't address the argument he was making, possibly
> indicating that you probably misunderstood what he was saying about TOFU
> (trust-on-first-use).

I think I have already addressed his arguments. I don't believe TOFU is safe,
my described method is better.


> Cheers, Greg

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